Why didn't Peter and the other Apostles said any hail Mary's when she was living right among them?
If you check and see when the wise men visited the home of Joseph and Mary, they bowed down and worshipped the Child, Jesus Christ and didn't say one Hail Mary. When someone shouted out to Jesus that "blessed is the paps which you have suck", it was the perfect chance for Him to venerate Mary and say that she is the Blessed Mother, but He said no such thing, instead he said, "blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it." (Luke 11:27)
Even Mary, herself, said that her soul rejoiced in God, her Savior, (Luke 1:47) which goes to show that Mary, like all of us who were born in sin, needed to be saved as well. Peter said that their is salvation in none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Mary can't save anyone, nor pray for anyone. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can a person be save, not through Mary.
Come on Catholics, take your eyes off Mary and place them on Jesus Christ who alone can save.
Jesus died on the cross for our sins, not Mary.
Jesus rose from the dead for us, not Mary.
Jesus is at the right hand of God, making intercessions for us, not Mary.
Peter and the early Church knew something you guys don't know, and that is that Jesus is the only way.
Put your trust in Him to day and ask Him to save you like he did for Mary and everyone else.
Why didn't they say any Hail Mary's and why so much emphasize Mary, when she can't save you? }
Mary Ann replied:
Dear Jerome —
Far more things happened than are written in the Gospels, which do not include every word spoken by the people concerned. (John 21:25)
However, the Hail Mary is in the New Testament, the first part was spoken by Gabriel and the second was spoken by Elizabeth. The last part was added later as a petition, which was common to attach when praising a great person.
So why not Hail Jesus who is greater than Mary?
If you check Catholic history, Mary was never acknowledged until years later. She never was held in high esteem among them. The Catholic Church is a man-made institution, and not of God.
Why do only Catholics venerate her?
I read a person's account of their visit to Heaven and the person said that Mary isn't aware of what is going on down here, so your Hail Mary's are only going into thin air. She can't do anything for you, so why pray to her. She can't hear you, nor help you.
Why wasn't she in the upper room with the other Apostles on the day of Pentecost?
It seems that she needed the Holy Ghost, like every one else, and no Hail Marys were said. Remember Jesus is greater than Mary, so put your eyes on Him, not Mary.
Mary Ann replied:
We do bless Jesus in the same prayer.
Mary was acknowledged in the first catacomb pictures, and in the earliest Gospels. She was in the center of the group with the Apostles who awaited Pentecost. She was taken in by the Beloved Disciple, John, and we should all be beloved disciples and take her into our homes.
Mary Ann —
If Mary was such a prominent figure, how come after Pentecost, we only hear of Peter and the other Apostles performing miracles and establishing churches?
If Mary was this great figure, we would have heard much more about her and she would have been right up there with the Apostles. There is no record of Mary establishing any churches. She was not one of the twelve Apostles who Jesus chose. Mary was only a vessel to bring the Christ child into the world. She was from the earthly linage of David. She was not the only virgin in Israel at that time, so there is nothing special or supernatural about her.
I was a Catholic before. I use to Hail Mary but she could not help me, although when I gave my life to Jesus Christ, he saved me from my sins and drug addiction. He can do the same for you, if you surrender your life to him and let him into your heart.
Mary Ann replied:
There is much historical memory of Mary and her life with John. It is preserved in the Church's tradition. As for establishing churches, women didn't do that. Christ chose only men to be Apostles.
Mary was more than a vessel. Christ was physically made from her genes. He redeemed fallen humanity, so he had to bear our flesh, not some flesh made up in an instant by God. He was a true genetic Son of all of his forebears through Mary.
Finally, I am surprised that you think that you can honor Christ at all, by demeaning His mother. That is not the way to a man's heart! Mary can help us surrender to Christ. That is her job, to bring Christ to us, and us to Christ. She prays for us. She is a mother to us.
Since by Baptism we are incorporated into the New Adam, Christ's living Body, we really become her children too. You are right that she is not supernatural, in herself. She is a humble handmaid of the Lord, whom He filled with grace from her beginning, so that no taint of sin would ever touch the flesh that would become the flesh of the Son of God.
Dear Mary Ann,
I realize that you were indoctrinated in the Catholic doctrine therefore you have been lied to.
Mary does not pray for anyone. It's the lie of the devil to deceive people and place the emphasis on someone else other than Jesus.
Do you read your Bible, Mary Ann?
If you do, you will see that it's Christ who is sitting on the right hand of God, not Mary. When Jesus went back to Heaven he left Mary on earth, so who is in Heaven interceding on our behalf, it was Jesus, and not Mary. Read your Bible, Peter told the council that their is one mediator between God and man, and it's Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 2:5)
When he told them this, Mary was still here on earth, so how could she be praying for us?
When the Ethiopian eunuch was led to Christ by Philip where was Mary?
When the Philippian jailer was converted where was Mary?
There are millions of Christians in the world that got saved without Mary including me. Their are people who were delivered from drugs, including me, by Jesus Christ, and not Mary.
Are you born again Mary Ann?
Are you a Christian?
If not, I challenge you to accept Jesus Christ in your life and you will see what I am talking about.
I assure you you will never say another Hail Mary in your life.
Mary Ann replied:
Do you pray for people?
Do you ask other people to pray for you?
Do you ask preachers to pray for you?
Do you think people lose their desire to help and pray for others when they get to Heaven?
Mary Ann —
Yes, I ask people to pray for me, and I pray for others down here on earth. When a person goes to Heaven, they don't need to pray any more. Prayer is labor and the Bible says that when a person goes to Heaven they cease from
all their labors.
Elijah was a man of prayer too, so why not Hail Elijah and ask him to pray for us sinners?
You seem to only focus on Mary, but it's Jesus job to intercede for us. It's amazing how you won't answer me about how Paul said that their is one mediator between God and man and it's Christ Jesus.
If Mary was praying for us, she would have let us know.
When Mary was left on earth and when Jesus went back to his Heavenly Father, who was praying for
you in Heaven?
Mary Ann replied:
The Bible says Jesus prays for us eternally before the Father. The Bible speaks of a cloud of witnesses urging us on here on earth. (Hebrews 12:1) As for Elijah, we do pray to him. We pray to all the Saints. Hail just means hello or greetings.
You are correct that there is only one mediator but if your understanding of that passage is correct, then we shouldn't be praying for each other, as you are doing. The fact is, God has given us the great gift of being incorporated into Christ, the High Priest, and each of us shares in His prayer to the Father, through the Holy Spirit. That is why we can pray in the name of Jesus and in the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why the Spirit prays in us.
Each of us has different roles in the Body, but we are all priests, in the One Priest, Jesus Christ.
Some, however, have been ordained to be presbyters, men set aside so that Christ, through them, can make His Sacrifice, His prayer, present for us to
After reading your dialogue with Mary, it appears you were never properly catechized, like many, in the faith. For short, you left a Church you never knew or accepted.
On what authority do you get your opinions?
It can't be the Bible, because the Bible was written:
by Catholics and their ancestors
for use in the Catholic worship service, the Mass
That's just History 101. The Mass itself is loaded with Scripture quotes.
There another question you have to consider:
Who choose the books that make up the New Testament you read on a regular basis?
Historically, we know that Catholic bishops, guided by the Holy Spirit, chose those books in 382 A.D. at the Council of Rome. For that reason, whenever you read from the New Testament, you are implicitly trusting the decision that Catholic bishops made back in 382 A.D.
Now let's talk about Jesus and Mary, for you can't talk about Jesus, without talking about Mary, because it was the Father's choice to send His Son, Jesus, incarnated, made flesh, through a woman.
If you don't like that choice, then your problem is not with the Catholic Church, but with God the Father.
Could Mary have said to the Angel Gabriel, No, I don't want to become the Mother of God?
Yes! She had free will.
Did she? No.
So without Mary's "Yes", to God the Father and the angel Gabriel, we wouldn't be saved according to the Father's Plan.
We know when we pray to Mary, as attested to in the Scriptures, she will always lead us to her Son, not herself. (John 2:5)
We say Jesus was the effective means of salvation; meaning Jesus packs the punch, but Mary is the instrumental means of salvation.
When you share the Gospel with a non-Christian, you are an instrumental means of salvation for them as well and because you are "In Christ", you are a co-mediator with Jesus called to preach the Gospel to the world. (1 Timothy 2:1-4) Just read the end of Matthews Gospel where the Apostles were sent. (Matthew 28:16-20) We are called to continue what they started. In the same way, Mary was the instrumental means of salvation for all mankind.
Nevertheless, neither you nor Mary saved the non-Christian by yourselves, but both of you helped in assisting that non-Christian to know and learn about who Jesus is and the Catholic Church He founded on St. Peter. (Matthew 16:13-20)
In what way is Mary the instrumental means of our salvation?
In the same way, the saint's were. Mary had the same free will you and me do, so, again, without her "yes" to the angel Gabriel and the God the Father, the Father respecting our free will, could not have sent His Son for our salvation by natural means. Mary's instrumental means was needed. You don't hear her mentioned much in the Gospel because of Mary's humble nature. Period.
In the same way, the Gospel could never have lasted over 2,000 years after Our Lady's Assumption, without the "yes" from saints and martyrs of the Church to preserve and perpetuate the Catholic faith to this day.
Have the prayers and works of evangelization by these saints in the past 2,000 years, undermined the sole mediation of Christ?
<No!> Because they are In Christ, they manifest and make present Jesus Christ from generation to generation, as He commanded us: (Matthew 28:16-20).
The Hail Mary is a Scriptural prayer made up of Scripture passages from Luke and a petition for Mary to pray for us, in the same way you would ask someone for help, if your house burnt down. Catholic don't worship Mary, we give her high honor. If you hear something contrary to this, they are distorting what both Mary Ann, I, and all practicing Catholics believe.
You can believe whatever you want Jerome, but please don't distort what I believe as a practicing Catholic. If you find yourself in a situation where you are unsure what we believe, search for it in the on-line Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is my favorite one:
You said: Have you surrender your life to Him and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior?
You have to be kidding! We have the Real Presence Jerome! We receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ weekly and daily if we wish. You can't have more of a personal relationship with Christ than that! That is the Church you have left.
Now my questions for you:
Does your denomination have bishops, deacons, and priests?
The Church of the New Testament and the Catholic Church does.
Can I meet one of your bishops?
Can I meet one of your deacons? and
Can I meet one of your priests?
If I want to be a Bible-believing Christian, and your congregation doesn't have clerical roles that I find in the New Testament, why should I join your group?
Or, is it you, that belong to a man-made Church?
You said: I realize that you were indoctrinated in the Catholic doctrine therefore you have been lied to
On what historical grounds do you base this slander?
We base our faith on the words of Jesus Himself:
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
One of the most difficult things about this apostolate is discerning whether people are open to another viewpoint or are set in their own
self-centered ways. I don't know why you left the Church but I would encourage you not to hide the reason in your subconscious, like:
I was never really taught the faith correctly
I would have had to change my lifestyle
my over bearing parents, or
like many, I was sacramentalized but never evangelized;
for short, I never appreciated what I was given.
Besides the Oral Tradition of our Church, if you want the Biblical basis for some of what we believe, check out my Scripture Passage page below:
After reading your response, I am glad I didn't stay in the Catholic faith, because I would have been blinded by false teaching that is contrary to the Bible.
To say that the Bible was written by Catholics is misleading. The Bible was written by Jews, the descendants of Abraham. Salvation came into the world by Jesus Christ, who according to the flesh, was a Jew, as were the Apostles. Jesus himself told the woman at the well that salvation is from the Jews. Not one of them was labeled a Catholic.
I noticed when a person comes to visit your Pope they had to bow down to him and kiss his ring, yet Peter, who you guys claim to be the first Pope, stopped Cornelius, the Roman centurion, from bowing down to him, by saying I am a man just like you. In other words, you don't bow to man, you bow to God.
I wouldn't dare bow to my pastor or worship him.
I never see anywhere in the Bible where the early church worshipped like you guys. As important as you guys hold Mary, the early church would have done the same thing, if she was that important. Take your eyes of Mary, she can't do anything for you.
Hi, Jerome —
The Apostles wouldn't have prayed the Hail Mary while she was among the living, because she was still among them. If they wanted her to pray for them, and with them, they would have just asked her to pray with them.
That is actually all the Hail Mary is, it is a greeting — virtually word for word the greeting of the Archangel, Gabriel, followed by that of Elizabeth, followed by a request that she pray for us; that is what praying to the saints is. It is not worship. It is a request for their assistance in prayer, just as you would ask your pastor or friend to pray for you.
We know that they can hear us if we bother to read the book of Hebrews, specifically the twelfth Chapter which describes the unbroken unity of the Church in Heaven and the Church on Earth. This is also seen in Revelation, Chapter 5, verse 8 when the twenty-four elders fall down in prayer holding bowls of incense which are prayers of the saints being offered to God.
It is important to note that Mary's role is not so different that ours. She prays with and for the Church and it's members. She prayers for the world, just as we do. She didn't cease to be a Christian just because she's in Heaven. Neither does anyone else. In fact, once we are in Heaven, we become far better Christians, more in tune with the Will of God, and therefore we can pray more according to His Will. This renders our prayers all the more powerful.
Now as for who has been lied to and who hasn't been Jerome —
You say that Mary herself knew she needed a Savior and rejoiced in Him.
Well duh, don't you think we can't read.
The Church has never claimed that Mary didn't need a Savior. Mary was saved, in and through Jesus Christ, just as you and I are being saved, and just as those in the Old Testament were saved, not knowing who the Messiah would be.
Nevertheless, the manner in which that salvation came to Mary was different than the way it came to you and I. Mary was saved before she fell. We have biblical evidence of other similar graces, although they are not exactly the same. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother, Elizabeth's womb. So he didn't quite make it to the Billy Graham Crusade and walk the isle in order to be saved. No, he received the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth's womb, without a profession of faith or baptism and this all happened before the Calvary!! God simply gave him the grace.
In the same way, Catholics espouse that Mary was preserved from Original Sin from the moment of conception, by the future merits of Christ, so Mary was saved by the Cross just as you and I.
You are the one who has been lied to and fed a distortion and misrepresentation about the Catholic Church.
Did you read the reply I sent to you? or
Did you want to just blast to me what your Protestant minister has taught you?
You didn't answer any of the questions I asked and I've answered the questions in your last reply, in my reply before that!
In the same way, visitors show and honor and respect to any of the Presidents of the United States, so the Pope is shown the same honor. Catholics do not worship the Pope.
When I read your last reply all I heard were distorted views of what Catholics believe. Please do not distort what I believe as a Catholic, unless you wish to opening admit you are an anti-Catholic. Whoever you are getting your information from is anti-Catholic!
This is unjust and unfair. I suggest you re-read my second to last reply starting:
I apologize if someone in the Church hurt you; we all have are faults.
I've heard your "talking points" before and most of the time they are from hurt, uncatechized Catholics who either have a counter reaction to overbearing devout Catholic parents, or cannot accept the lifestyle the Church encourages.
If you are truly interested in Christ and the one Church he founded, you will search our knowledge base of postings.
We have answer almost every question in the book; all you need to do is use the appropriate search terms.
God Bless, and if you don't mind, I'll keep you in my prayers, though I certainly don't wish to undermine the sole mediator ship of Christ : )
I am not hurt, bitter, nor did my Pastor tell me something about the Catholic Church.
All I am saying is that Jesus Christ did things for me, that Mary could not do, and that He's the one that saved me from my sins through his death on the Cross. That's all. So I don't need Mary, nor do I need to pray to her or anyone else, it would only vanish in thin air.
I was a sinner headed towards Hell, despite the fact that I was calling on Mary, but when I called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, he saved me and delivered me from Hell. He can do the same thing for you if you call on His Name. She couldn't help me then and she can't help me now, nor can she help you.
Try Jesus today and you will see what I am talking about. Invite him into your life and see what a difference he will make in your life. Remember:
He is the one who died on the cross.
He is the one who rose from the dead.
He is the one on the right hand of God the Father, making intercession for us.
He is waiting for you to call on Him so He can save you and deliver you from Hell, so do it today, before it's to late.
Mary Ann replied:
Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
Jerome, "pray to" in English simply means "ask for".
You pray to your friends when you ask them to pray for you. We adore God. We ask friends, the saints, angels, and Mary, the greatest saint, to pray for us.
If I were you, I would not disrespect Jesus' mother; He probably doesn't like that.
Why don't you sincerely ask Jesus what to do about His mother?
I am not disrespecting Mary. All I am saying is that Jesus never elevated her to any lofty position as the greatest saint.
When the disciples asked Jesus who is the greatest in the kingdom, why didn't He say Mary was the greatest saint?
It's only you Catholics who are putting her on this pedestal when:
she is a mere mortal, just like us
subject to death, just like us
one who saw bodily corruption, just like us
awaiting to be resurrected, just like us.
So why should I pray to a mere mortal when I can pray to the eternal God?
Like I said, until you truly invite Jesus Christ into your heart and life, and ask him to forgive you of all your sins, you will never see the truth. When I gave my heart to Jesus Christ, he opened my eyes and showed me the truth. I use to call on Mary and she did nothing for me. I was the same, but when I called on the Lord, Jesus Christ, He saved me.
Like the Bible says, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away, behold all things are becoming new.
Mary Ann replied:
Hi, Jerome —
God sent his angel to greet her with the words that mean "filled to overflowing" with grace.
The Holy Spirit spoke through Elizabeth saying she was blessed among women and Mary herself said, "All nations will call me blessed."
The Bible supports the special blessedness of Mary.
Mary Ann —
If praying to Mary and asking her to pray for you guys, is so important, then it would have been a major doctrine in the early church and the writings of the Apostles, yet there is no mention of praying to Mary.
You said that not all things are written down, so where did you get your information that the early church prayed to Mary?
The things that are important and relevant to us are written down in the Bible, so if praying to Mary was important, it would have being written down. You are only assuming the early church prayed to Mary; you have no proof. Every time some one prayed in the Bible, they are praying to God, not Mary. From Genesis to Revelation, there is not one Hail Mary! This shows she didn't count in their eyes. Mary herself had to pray to God on the day of Pentecost along with the other Apostles, and Peter was the spokesman, not Mary. None of the Old Testament saints prayed to Mary, yet they are in Heaven along with Mary.
How did they get there?
By looking unto the coming of Jesus Christ. You don't need Mary to pray for you, because no one else did and they are now in Heaven. Once you put your trust in Jesus Christ then that's all you need. No saint, who is now in Heaven, is praying for anyone, so stop being deceived by your Catholic faith and give your heart to Jesus Christ.
To show you how insignificant Mary is in terms of salvation, millions of saints who lived before Mary's time on earth are in Heaven, even those who never even said one Hail Mary. They got into Heaven without Mary but they couldn't get their without serving God. Elijah, Enoch, all the Old Testament prophets were in Heaven before Mary, which shows you don't need to say any Hail Mary or pray to her, nor bow down to her statue, which is idolatry, a practice God punished the children of Israel for.
That is why the early church said no prays to Mary because they realize that praying to Mary is a waste of time. I pray that you will see the light of day like me and invite Jesus Christ into your heart and life.
Mary Ann replied:
I said not all things are written in reference to Scripture, not in reference to writings in general.
Praise of Mary is in the Scripture also. "Blessed are you among women." (Luke 1:42 ) The Hail Mary was said by the angel, Gabriel and by Elizabeth. Mary prays with us for our intentions, just as she prayed for the Spirit with the Apostles on Pentecost. They wanted, asked, prayed with her to be with them. No one is alone with Jesus in Heaven.
In reference to your last two paragraph on salvation, you are wrong.
All those people got to Heaven because of the plan of salvation through Christ, through His foreseen merits. And Christ comes through Mary. As for the early Church, she prayed to Mary.
There are images in the catacombs of Mary with Jesus, and the Gospels themselves contain prayers to Mary.
Hi, Jerome —
You said: That is why the early church said no prays to Mary because they realize that praying to Mary is a waste of time.
Not correct. No early Church Father could have said the Hail Mary because, in point of fact, there is little or no trace of the Hail Mary as an accepted devotional formula before about 1050 A.D.
All the evidence suggests that it took its rise from certain versicles and responsories occurring in the Little Office or Cursus of the Blessed Virgin which just at that time was coming into favour among the monastic orders. See the New Advent article on the Hail Mary.
So you are claiming something did not happen, that could never have happened.
Your claim that the reasoning is because it was a waste of time is ridiculous. For the first 500 to 700 years of the Church, the Church was developing, for the faithful, its central teachings of: