Bringing you the "Good News" of Jesus Christ and His Church While PROMOTING CATHOLIC Apologetic Support groups loyal to the Holy Father and Church's magisterium
Home About
AskACatholic.com
What's New? Resources The Church Family Life Mass and
Adoration
Ask A Catholic
Knowledge base
AskACatholic Disclaimer
Search the
AskACatholic Database
Donate and
Support our work
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
New Questions
Cool Catholic Videos
About Saints
Disciplines and Practices
Purgatory and Indulgences
About the Holy Mass
About Mary
Searching and Confused
Homosexual Issues
Life and Family
No Salvation Outside the Church
Sacred Scripture
non-Catholic Cults
Justification and Salvation
The Pope and Papacy
The Sacraments
back
Relationships and Marriage situations
Specific people, organizations and events
Doctrine and Teachings
Specific Practices
Church Internals
Church History


Ken Admin wrote:

Hi, guys —

If a man has completed his training and has achieved the status of priest in the Roman Catholic Church and has learned the formula whereby in he can celebrate the Eucharist and can invite Jesus Christ to inhabit the Wafer, if for some unforgivable deed against his calling and his Church,
he is defrocked:

What happens to the formula whereby he previously invited Jesus Christ to be really present in the Wafer?

Ken

  { Can a defrocked priest still celebrate the sacraments and questions about Papal claims. }

John replied:

Hi, Ken —

Thanks for the question:

Before dealing with the actual question, let's deal with some theological errors expressed in the question.

A man doesn't achieve the status of priest. He is ordained. Holy Orders is a Sacrament, which permanently and forever changes the character of the man's soul and, on an ontological level and configures the man to Christ. Hence, when the priest speaks the words of institution, it is Christ who speaks and the unleavened bread (wafer, as you call it) becomes Christ. The priest doesn't invite Jesus to come into the wafer, rather a change in substance occurs. What appears to be bread and wine, is actually the Sacramental presence of Christ (body, blood, soul, and divinity,
in what appears to be bread and wine.)

Now to your question: When a priest is defrocked, he is forbidden to act as a priest unless he encounters someone in immediate danger of death. Since the Sacrament of Holy Orders can't be undone, a priest is always a priest. The Church forbids him from administering the Sacraments, except in cases of emergency. If the priest disobeys and decides to confect the Eucharist or hear Confessions, those sacraments are still valid. The priest is sinning and will have to answer to God for his disobedience, but that's about it.

The Church can't take away Holy Orders.

John

Mary Ann replied:

Hi, Ken —

Neither the status of the priest nor the "formula" that confects the Eucharist constitute the priesthood, nor does Jesus "inhabit" the wafer.

The priest receives from the Holy Spirit the ability to be used by Christ, acting in Him, when he celebrates the sacraments. This ability can not be lost. When a priest is laicized, permission is revoked for the use of this faculty. Any sacraments he celebrates are valid but illegal (illicit).

When a priest celebrates the Eucharist, the bread becomes the living Body of the Lord and the wine becomes the living blood of the Lord. That is, what appears to be bread and what appears to be wine each is, in fact, the presence of the Risen Lord.

Mary Ann

Ken replied:

Good afternoon, Mary Ann —
Good afternoon, John —

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query.

I think that I have received your information correctly.  Thank you for the correction to my terminology.

If Jesus does not "inhabit" the wafer, He actually becomes the wafer. The wafer and the wine do not tangibly change. To all outward appearances, sense [i.e. tactile, olfactory taste and scientific analysis,] the constituents of the wafer and the wine remain unchanged but must be received as changed by the faith of the Church, especially in the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Is this stated correctly?

You and John implied the punishment for unforgivable actions against the Church is for the priest to be laicized.

  • Does this mean to be relegated to the non-sanctified status of the laity, meaning the common people, which would elevate the priesthood to a status of eminence, above that of the common herd?

You mentioned priests receive from the Holy Spirit, the actual Father of "Jesus,": the awesome power to create billions of Christ's, every week, if not every day. That would imply all these Christ's are eaten and drunk regularly. No wonder it is called a Mystery!

It appears that when the priest receives the power to command the Real Presence from the
Holy Spirit, it's the same Holy Spirit who created "Jesus" in the womb of Mary
[according to the Scriptures]. 

  • Does the priest, in his fallen state, then have that power revoked by the same Holy Spirit?
  • How is this possible?

Thank you for addressing my confusion.

Ken

Mary Ann replied:

Yes, the wafer and the wine become Christ. The "accidents" (everything perceived by senses) remain, but the substance, the "what a thing is", the being, changes.

  • The miracle is that the sense properties remain!
  • The power that does it is Christ Himself, who acts when the priest obediently does what Christ said to do.

Laicization is one punishment. Another might be to go live in a monastery for the rest of one's life.  Criminal punishment belongs to the state.

Laicization simply means the priest is no longer permitted to function as a priest. His clerical status is revoked, but he remains a priest. The priestly character or "power" remain, but may not be used, except in extraordinary circumstances.

The laity are sanctified by Baptism, the fundamental and most important consecration for a Christian. We are all a holy people, the Body of Christ. The priest is set apart for a special task, sharing in the work of the Head of the Body, which is Christ.

The priests do not create, they obey, and Christ becomes present through the sacraments of the Church, obedient to His own promise. There is only one Christ. We participate in Him, we are joined to Him. His glorified resurrected Body is able to be present in multiple locations.

I hope this helps.

Mary Ann

Ken replied:

Good afternoon Mary Anne.

Thank you again for your response. Just a couple more questions and comments.

  • I have wondered how it is that an organization, the CEO of which lays claim to being
    "The Vicar of Christ", can reach the point where human wisdom and authority can be elevated above that of the Holy Spirit?

The Roman Catholic Church makes the claim that "tradition is above Scripture and that the teachings of the Church Fathers are above Scripture and must be obeyed on pain of severe punishment.  Above that, it calls for the breaking of the Laws of YaHWeH.

  • What purpose then do the Scriptures serve?

I find it marvelous that a person, conceived and born in sin can, by the sprinkling and invocation of a priest, becomes sanctified and can, through much study and denying the "flesh", [that gift created by YaHWeH] can rise through the many ranks to the office of Pope and become "God " on Earth.

Now "God" is a title, not a proper name; there are gods, many gods.

  • Our Muslim friends have their God, who is named Allah.
  • Our Egyptian ancestors have their gods, all named.
  • as do the Hindus,
  • Buddhists, etc.

  • Does the Pope become YaHWeH, veiled by the flesh?
  • If not YaHWeH, then which god?

In recent Roman Catholic writings the Pope is "God on Earth".

  • How can a sinful human become so elevated in authority as to say:

Not saith YaHWeH but as "I" say, and lay people must obey, or face anathema?

It appears even such fundamental Laws as the Ten Commandments are subject to the will of the Pontiff.

Thank you for your explanations.

Ken

Mary Ann replied:

Ken —

The Catholic Church does not make that claim.

The Church claims only that the Word of the Lord Jesus was faithfully kept by His apostles, and passed down both orally and in writing (Scripture), and that this keeping and this passing down was the work of the Holy Spirit, which preserves the Word and the understanding of it to this day, according to the promise of Christ recorded in Scripture.

I've added a section from the Catechism that should clarify your misperceptions about the Pope.

Mary Ann

I. THE HIERARCHICAL CONSTITUTION OF THE CHURCH

Why the ecclesial ministry?

874 Christ is himself the source of ministry in the Church. He instituted the Church. He gave her authority and mission, orientation and goal:

In order to shepherd the People of God and to increase its numbers without cease, Christ the Lord set up in his Church a variety of offices which aim at the good of the whole body. The holders of office, who are invested with a sacred power, are, in fact, dedicated to promoting the interests of their brethren, so that all who belong to the People of God . . . may attain to salvation.

875 "How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?"
No one — no individual and no community — can proclaim the Gospel to himself: "Faith comes from what is heard." No one can give himself the mandate and the mission to proclaim the Gospel. The one sent by the Lord does not speak and act on his own authority, but by virtue of Christ's authority; not as a member of the community, but speaking to it in the name of Christ. No one can bestow grace on himself; it must be given and offered. This fact presupposes ministers of grace, authorized and empowered by Christ. From him, bishops and priests receive the mission and faculty ("the sacred power") to act in persona Christi Capitis; deacons receive the strength to serve the people of God in the diaconia of liturgy, word and charity, in communion with the bishop and his presbyterate. The ministry in which Christ's emissaries do and give by God's grace what they cannot do and give by their own powers, is called a "sacrament" by the Church's tradition. Indeed, the ministry of the Church is conferred by a special sacrament.

876 Intrinsically linked to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry is its character as service. Entirely dependent on Christ who gives mission and authority, ministers are truly "slaves of Christ," in the image of him who freely took "the form of a slave" for us. Because the word and grace of which they are ministers are not their own, but are given to them by Christ for the sake of others, they must freely become the slaves of all.

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons.

For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop.

878 Finally, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a personal character. Although Christ's ministers act in communion with one another, they also always act in a personal way. Each one is called personally: "You, follow me" in order to be a personal witness within the common mission, to bear personal responsibility before him who gives the mission, acting "in his person" and for other persons: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . ."; "I absolve you . . . ."

879 Sacramental ministry in the Church, then, is a service exercised in the name of Christ. It has a personal character and a collegial form. This is evidenced by the bonds between the episcopal college and its head, the successor of St. Peter, and in the relationship between the bishop's pastoral responsibility for his particular church and the common solicitude of the episcopal college for the universal Church.

The episcopal college and its head, the Pope

880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them." Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."

884 "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council." But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor."

885 "This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."

886 "The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches." As such, they "exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them," assisted by priests and deacons. But, as a member of the episcopal college, each bishop shares in the concern for all the Churches. The bishops exercise this care first "by ruling well their own Churches as portions of the universal Church," and so contributing "to the welfare of the whole Mystical Body, which, from another point of view, is a corporate body of Churches." They extend it especially to the poor, to those persecuted for the faith, as well as to missionaries who are working throughout the world.

887 Neighboring particular Churches who share the same culture form ecclesiastical provinces or larger groupings called patriarchates or regions. The bishops of these groupings can meet in synods or provincial councils. "In a like fashion, the episcopal conferences at the present time are in a position to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegiate spirit."

* The teaching office

888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command. They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

The sanctifying office

893 The bishop is "the steward of the grace of the supreme priesthood," especially in the Eucharist which he offers personally or whose offering he assures through the priests, his co-workers. The Eucharist is the center of the life of the particular Church. The bishop and priests sanctify the Church by their prayer and work, by their ministry of the word and of the sacraments. They sanctify her by their example, "not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock." Thus, "together with the flock entrusted to them, they may attain to eternal life."

The governing office

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.

895 "The power which they exercise personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately controlled by the supreme authority of the Church." But the bishops should not be thought of as vicars of the Pope. His ordinary and immediate authority over the whole Church does not annul, but on the contrary confirms and defends that of the bishops. Their authority must be exercised in communion with the whole Church under the guidance of the Pope.

896 The Good Shepherd ought to be the model and "form" of the bishop's pastoral office. Conscious of his own weaknesses, "the bishop . . . can have compassion for those who are ignorant and erring. He should not refuse to listen to his subjects whose welfare he promotes as of his very own children. . . . The faithful . . . should be closely attached to the bishop as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father":

Let all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ follows his Father, and the college of presbyters as the apostles; respect the deacons as you do God's law. Let no one do anything concerning the Church in separation from the bishop.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, 107AD

 

Please report any and all typos or grammatical errors.
Suggestions for this web page and the web site can be sent to Mike Humphrey
© 2012 Panoramic Sites
The Early Church Fathers Church Fathers on the Primacy of Peter. The Early Church Fathers on the Catholic Church and the term Catholic. The Early Church Fathers on the importance of the Roman Catholic Church centered in Rome.