Hi, Kevin —

First area:

These areas covers justification, grace, merit and Christian holiness CCC 1987 through paragraph 2029

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1987.htm

Second area:

One important area has to do will what has been a commonly misunderstood Catholic teaching:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

The reason why it is misunderstood is because people omit a certain part of the whole
understanding of the teaching. When you only get half the truth, you end up in heresy.

I have a whole section dedicated to this and am VERY, VERY familiar with Fr. Feeney issues. Long story.

From my web site: Nine questions and answers that address this specific teaching. I recommend
you take the time to read them. As an Apologist it is important that you understand what it teaches
AND what it DOESN'T TEACH.

Questions on the Catholic doctrine "Outside the Church there is no Salvation".

Below is a copy and paste job but you REALLY should review the surrounding areas in the Catechism itself.

From the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

Hope this helps,

Mike

Hi, Kevin —

I'm CC'ing my colleague for their two cents on this.

You said:
I wanted to ask you though, if you were a Protestant and you read your subtitle about the "only true Church", would you be offended?

Sure I would be. I guess because the implication is that the Protestant faith I believe in is not as good as your Catholic faith.

What you would need to do is explain to me the historical nature of the Catholic Church; that it is the only True Church that can trace itself back to 33AD, and that in most, if not in all cases, the Bible Belt faiths were started by men, not by Jesus establishing the Church on St. Peter.

It would be important for you to point out to me:

That what I believe in my Protestant faith which agrees with what you believe in your Catholic Faith is something we can both celebrate and rejoice over.

Mike

Hi, Mike —

I think Kevin needs something that gets more to the basics of the salvation issue for his dialogue with Methodist friends. Protestant Christians are concerned about questions like these -- with the top questions being more important than the bottom ones:

* What is salvation?
* Why does man need it?
* How do we find out about it?
* Who makes it possible?
* Does it require our consent? our cooperation?
* Does God want us to do anything particular as our part in bringing it about?
* In what ways is salvation a result of God's action?
* In what ways is salvation a result of the believer's action?
* What role do other Christians have in our salvation?
* What role does the Christian community as a whole (Church) have?
* Is salvation a permanent condition? Can it be lost and regained?

For example, a Methodist will probably be reassured to learn that Catholics believe in many of the same basics Protestants hold: that salvation is friendship with God (the Holy Trinity), gained for us by Jesus Christ, who is both God and man; that it is a gift, and not something we could independently merit; that it is wholly connected with Jesus' death and resurrection; that it includes the forgiveness of our sins; and that it makes us in some sense sons of God.

Now, the Catechism doesn't always use the word "salvation" to talk about all these aspects, because it's not the only word used in Scripture to describe this relationship with God. You'll also find it described as fellowship or communion with God; as being in God's grace; as being "in Christ".

--RC

Kevin —

Well, I personally would just put "the Church founded by Christ". Because the rest of it gets technical and thus open to misunderstanding. Theologically, there is one Church. There are some broken-off but living branches of the Church, the Orthodox ones, and there are denominations in which people live who are part of the Church by baptism or by faith and baptism or by faith but don't know it. Those denominations contain truths, many truths, and these truths are truths of the true Church. There is one Lord, one faith, one Baptism. One rule, one belief, one sacramental body. One Christ, one truth, one body into which we are Baptized. If it weren't for the Church, the truth and grace participated in by these Christians would not be in the world. The Church is the locus of Christ's acting in the world. Of course, the Spirit blows where He wills, and Christ has "sheep not of this fold", but all that seek the good, tends to unity with it, and in that sense all those who are outside of the Church, but sincerely seeking the good according to the lights given them, are tending to union with it.

PS: As for "how do Catholics think we are saved?"

We are saved by Christ!!!!! He saves us by His work, and His working in us. In both cases we have to consent. The fundamentalists give all power to the consent to the "salvation prayer." Catholics credit our consent, moved by God's grace, to Christ's work and to His working in us now by the Spirit, daily, as we work out our salvation (as St. Paul said).

Mary Ann

Kevin —

I would avoid this formulation ("one true church"). One it sounds triumphalistic. If you consider that virtuous, then it sounds like we're a cult. It's not language well received by our modern world. It also sounds overly simplistic, and sounds like, as Mary Ann said, you are excluding the truth that others rightly possess. I would prefer to say that we possess the fullness of truth. This is in line with the language of Vatican II (which never says we are the "one true church").

Hope this helps,

Eric

Eric

Forgive me but I think you are wrong. The doctrine "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" is still part of Catholic Doctrine and to ignore this is to deny the enquirer the fullness of truth which the Church possesses.

Of course other 'ecclesial communities' (like Protestants, Anglicans etc are not Churches in the proper sense). They contain some elements of truth, but not the fullness of truth. Similarly pagan religions such as Hindu, Mohammidism, etc contain some (lesser) elements of truth, but we should take the example of St Paul at the Areopagus when dealing with these.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin,

What part of what I said denies Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus? The question is not what to teach, but how to teach it.

One would not go up to a Protestant and tell him, "Outside the Catholic Church there no salvation. Join us or you'll go to Hell" and expect him to convert. It may well be true, but we can't say that and expect people to be attracted to the faith.

Now, I'm not saying that there might not be specific scenarios where it would advance our cause to use such language, nor am I saying that there aren't people who need to hear it. What I am saying is that, in general, people today are more likely to be turned off to the Catholic Church, thus further away from salvation, if we go around bragging about how we are the One True Church (tm).

On top of that, there is the distinction between saying "We are the one true church", which tends to imply that everyone else is dead wrong, and saying "We have the fullness of Truth", which from a doctrinal perspective says exactly the same thing, but it sounds a lot less insulting to some people.

By the way, I am not denying that we *are* the one true church. I'm just saying that we have to be careful when we say it to non-Catholics because some people may get the wrong idea.

Eric

Hmmmmm!

No time to put this diplomatically, but the truth should be told as it is! Perhaps you, and the others, can make these points in a diplomatic manner

I would start by being very controversial and say the Protestant 'Churches' are not Churches but they are ecclesial communities.

The only Churches in the true sense of the word are Latin Church (ie known as Roman Catholic) the Orthodox Churches who share our beliefs and with whom there are only 2 minor disagreements (the filioque clause in the Creed) and the Infallibility of the Pope (although they do accept the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome), the Uniate Church

Note how, (when speaking about Protestants etc.) the Church refers to ecumenical relations between "Catholics and other Christians"... (note the absence of the words "...other Christian Churches".)

Note also how Leo XIII dealt with Anglicans Orders - they are completely null and void!

If this is put in a kindly way to explain the Catholic position then others should not take offence.

Kevin

My point, Kevin, is not that the Catholic Church isn't the true Church of Christ, but merely that in some cases it may not be prudent to use such language (just as, for example, St. Athanasius's famous statement, "God became man so that man might become God" has to be handled delicately).

Eric