Hi Tessie,

I would just encourage you to read the bank of answers on the site to all the different questions you have. You could also look up the issues in a Catholic Catechism. You will find that your understanding of Catholicism is false. As for the Bible, the Catholic Church is the Church of the Bible. As a member of the Catholic Church, you heard four selections read from the Bible every time you went to Sunday Mass, three on weekdays. Your prayers came from the Bible, as do the prayers of the Mass. As for salvation, the Church does not believe that people in other religions can not be saved. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. The ordinary way to access Him is through His Church. But whenever anyone finds truth, they are finding Christ, whether they know it or not, and even the truth they find is the reflection of God's law in their conscience. As Christ said (and Protestants forget this), on the last day the people who didn't even know Christ will be let into the Kingdom because they served Him in the hungry, homeless, naked, imprisoned, and sick.

Mary Ann

Hi, Tessie —

Just to add to Mary Ann's point. When Catholics talk about works, we are not talking about earning salvation. Rather, works that justify with faith, are like faith, a response to grace.

Salvation is a complete work of Christ from beginning to end. And somehow, man's free will co-exists with the Sovereignty of God in a mysterious way we cannot fully comprehend. Yes, Salvation is an Sovereign act of God, accessed by faith and at the same time we must cooperate with grace.

Nevertheless, in all things, we give glory to God, knowing that it is he that works in us. It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.

John DiMascio

Hi Tessie,

I want to comment on a couple portions of your replies.

You said:
Since my leaving the Catholic Church and attending a non-denominational bible based church, I have learned more in these last 10 years than in my 20+ years at service in the Catholic church.

One of the sad state of affairs, I believe, in the Church today is that we do not catechize as well as we should. I'm probably a little younger then you, but I know I never received any solid catechesis from my local parish. I had some pretty good priests, but also some that weren't so good. What did that mean Tess?

All it meant was due to the human frailty and weakness of probably bishops, priests and CCD teachers, a better job could have been done. This doesn't take away from the historical reality that Jesus founded ONE Church on a man, St. Peter, and his successors and told him:

"Thou are Peter and upon this Peter, I will build MY Church."

Not Mike Humphrey's Church, not Tessie Moreno's Church, not "the-name-of-the-Church-you-are-attending-now's" Church, but

God/Jesus' Church. Matthew 16:13-20; 1 Timothy 3:15

Historically, less then 75 years after Our Lord's Ascension into Heaven and the sending of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, St. Ignatius of Antioch is quoted in 107 AD as saying:

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

To believe in a body of beliefs other then those the Catholic Church believes in, is to play "personal pope." You see, Protestants believe in the papacy ....their own papacy. They decide how to interpret Scripture, they decide what body of beliefs are divine and which are not.

Practicing Catholics hold on ONLY to the body of beliefs that Jesus taught and passed on to future generations through the Church. This passing on of His teaching to future generations is known as Tradition. (2 Thessalonians 2:15) The Church through her teaching authority, also called the Magisterium, safeguards and defends Christian teachings. When there is a new discovery or break-through, Our Lord, through the Holy Spirit and His Divine Church, guides the faithful to discern what is moral and what isn't. Example: Adult Stem Cell research: Good; Invitro fertilization: BAD. These terms would not have been in use back in Our Lord's time.

Kudos to both Mary Ann's and John's replies. They are right on, especially Mary Ann's. There are many questions and answers in our knowledge base here, that we have answered in the last 12 years. If you use our search engine and read some of the answers, I think you will find it VERY helpful.

You said:
I had read something earlier this year, that the pope had re-released, in regards to Salvation through the Catholic church was the only way.

You are correct and the Pope is correct.

The Roman Catholic Church is the one True Church Jesus established as the sole means for our salvation.

There are not 2.5 ca-zillion Jesus', but ONE Faith, ONE Lord and ONE Baptism. Romans ...I think :O)

That is just fact and history.

Nevertheless:

Does God bring a person into existence as a Methodist, Baptist, or Lutheran, just to damn them?
No, of course not!

Well, if the Catholic Church is the sole means of salvation, why not bring everyone into existence as a Catholic?

Answer: to pull a greater good out of it and to respect the free will every person has.

This last part is something your parents should respect. If they are hounding you to do this, or do that, they are not respecting your free will. St. Francis tells us, "Evangelize the world, and when needed, use words".

If your parents are the overbearing type, they should just be holy, silent, and prayerful witnesses...and respect your free will to share and seek.

The Catechism section on this does a very good job of explaining the "No Salvation Outside the Church" teaching of the Church in all situations, so I'm going to quote the whole section here along with the missionary stuff (that you can read or not.)

To be fair to the truth...and to yourself..., read each statement from CCC 846 - 848 completely without rushing:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men": "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."

850 The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord's missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit." The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God's love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on." Indeed, God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"; that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

852 Missionary paths. The Holy Spirit is the protagonist, "the principal agent of the whole of the Church's mission." It is he who leads the Church on her missionary paths. "This mission continues and, in the course of history, unfolds the mission of Christ, who was sent to evangelize the poor; so the Church, urged on by the Spirit of Christ, must walk the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and self-sacrifice even to death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection." So it is that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."

853 On her pilgrimage, the Church has also experienced the "discrepancy existing between the message she proclaims and the human weakness of those to whom the Gospel has been entrusted." Only by taking the "way of penance and renewal," the "narrow way of the cross," can the People of God extend Christ's reign. For "just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and oppression, so the Church is called to follow the same path if she is to communicate the fruits of salvation to men."

854 By her very mission, "the Church . . . travels the same journey as all humanity and shares the same earthly lot with the world: she is to be a leaven and, as it were, the soul of human society in its renewal by Christ and transformation into the family of God." Missionary endeavor requires patience. It begins with the proclamation of the Gospel to peoples and groups who do not yet believe in Christ, continues with the establishment of Christian communities that are "a sign of God's presence in the world," and leads to the foundation of local churches. It must involve a process of inculturation if the Gospel is to take flesh in each people's culture. There will be times of defeat. "With regard to individuals, groups, and peoples it is only by degrees that [the Church] touches and penetrates them and so receives them into a fullness which is Catholic."

855 The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God." They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil "for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man."

So if a Protestant is saved, it is through the Catholic Church, despite what disagreements he/she had with the Church on doctrine or teachings.

On your current faith journey, it is important for you to separate Church Teachings from Church "teachers": Church Teachings have always been (and always will be) protected from error by the Holy Spirit; this isn't necessarily the case with Church teachers. Any bad Judas-type behavior of sinful people you may have encountered in the Church is not a reflection of Church Teaching; it is instead a manifestation of man's fall from grace.

Remember Tess, when you attend a Protestant Bible Study or a Protestant church service, you may feel more:

-- challenged (because you learn more)
-- accepted (because the environment is friendly)
-- content (because the group is active)

Nevertheless, a person can discern the TRUTH only when he/she uses a properly informed intellect... NOT by relying on his "feelings" no matter how strong they might be.

Just because I might "feel" it is OK to have sex outside marriage, doesn't mean it is okay!

Imagine if I were to "feel" it is okay to take your dinner away from you.

God has divinely instilled in both men and women two strong desires in this life:

• eating and drinking so we can sustain ourselves and
• sexual activity with one member of the opposite sex: for the stability and continuation of society.
  

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that both these desires are good (very good and divinely implanted ), however man must NOT seek to fulfill these desires outside God's plan... and this requires that man use a properly informed intellect.

Man is not just an animal; he/she is a creature with an immortal soul meant for Heaven. The only reason it may sometimes appear that man is simply an animal... at least in this culture... is because many men (this includes women, of course) have improperly formed intellects.

Non-human animals have the same natural desire to eat and procreate, but they don't have immortal souls. There are no animals in Heaven. They have mortal souls, or a life principle that is intended to serve us in this earthly life only.

Protestant Bible Study Warning:

I used to attend Protestant Bible Studies for a while because I wanted to bring them the fullness of the Faith, they were missing. A friend of mine reminded me that although I had a good intention, there is always an underlining assumption with any Protestant church service and/or Bible Study and that is:

The Catholic Church is wrong, and their teachings are incorrect. This is despite the fact that this false assumption is never challenged in any Protestant Bible Study.

A knowledge of Church history and the Early Church Fathers will lead you to the truth.

One web page I have created to Biblically defend Catholic teachings is here:
http://www.askacatholic.com/holyquotes/documents/_all_catholic_verses.htm

Hope this helps, sorry if I rambled.

Mike

Tessie,

Please answer these questions for yourself.

• Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith?
• Where in the Bible does it say these are books that belong in the Bible these don't?

And please, the table of contents is not inspired scripture.

So if no book in bible gives you a complete list of books that belong in the bible, you must trust the authority that gave you the list of books if you are going to trust the bible at all.

It is an historical fact that the Catholic Church at the councils of Hippo and Carthage in the late 4th century/ early 5th century canonized scriptures. It was the Church that discerned by the power of the Holy Spirit there that there are 4 inspired gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It was the Church that determined the Gospel according to Thomas was heresy. It was the Church that also excluded the epistle of Barnabas and other books, but included the epistles of Paul, John, Peter, and James.

All these books were scrutinized in light of the oral Tradition that was handed down from the first generation of apostles to the next.

Hope to hear back from you,

John

Tessie,

If you really want to know and understand, than I suggest you start doing some reading.

I'd start with a book called By "What Authority, an Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition" by Mark P. Shea and "Evangelical is Not Enough" by Thomas Howard. If you can't find a copy, we'll try and get you one.

It systematically goes through the history of the Bible. But more importantly, Jesus said, "I'm going to build a Church"; He didn't say, "I'm going to publish a book." The Church He founded on Peter and the Apostles gave us the Bible, not the other way around.

I also suggest you read the early Church fathers. These men were one or two generations away from the original 12 Apostles; they studied either directly under them or directly under one of their disciples.
As you read their understanding of scripture you will begin to understand the nature of the Church.

But back to your original question. When the Church says: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation', it must be understood in the context of the entire body of Church Teaching.

It is not the same thing as saying, "There is no salvation outside the Church."
What it is saying is that were it not for the Catholic Church , which is the Body of Christ, salvation would not be open to anyone.

And in fact Tessie, on the most elementary level you've admitted that already without knowing it.
You came to Christ as a result of the scriptures, the scriptures were handed down and kept safe by the Catholic Church, therefore were it not for the Church, you would not have been saved.

You can not separate Christ from the Church. They are one and the same. While the Church is also human and capable of abuses of power, the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error in its official teaching. Were that not the case, you would not be able to trust the Bible.

But again-- back to salvation: The book of Revelation says: Salvation belongs to our God, who sits upon the Throne.

Alongside the Church's teaching "Outside the Church there is no salvation", the Church has always said that God is not limited to the same limitations He puts on His Church. God can save whom He pleases, when pleases, and how He please. That salvation was purchased by the complete work of Christ at Calvary. We as members of His body, participate in the work of Salvation, by preaching the Gospel, prayer, and responding to the grace given to us. In that sense we are co-redeemers in Christ.
Those who through not fault of their own, do not know Christ, have never heard and understood the fullness of the Gospel, or have never understood the necessity of being a Catholic can be saved by God and by virtue of the existence of His Church which intercedes on their behalf.

A Muslim for instance, may be saved. But not because he followed Islam. Rather, it's because Christ died for him. And because that Muslim during his life responded to whatever grace God made available to him.

John

Hi Tess,

Due to a difference in our Biblical interpretations of key biblical passages like Matt 16:13-20 and 1 Tim 3:15, I'm not sure we are going to make any progress. This goes back to:

1. Authority.
2. My point that in all of Christendom, we have as many "popes" as we have Protestants who interpret the Bible differently.

My suggestion, which you are welcome to turn down, is to go back to the what the very first Christians orally taught and wrote. The source our web site would recommend is a three volume set by William Jurgens called Faith of the Early Fathers. You can get one here.

It costs a few pennies :), but you will be shocked at how CATHOLIC the VERY FIRST Christians were and what they believed. There ARE Protestant versions of the Early Church Fathers, but obviously they are not going to be a source for quoting unmistakably Catholic teachings.

Warning: There are also Protestant web sites dedicated to the Early Church Fathers, but again, they are obviously not going to be a source for unmistakably Catholic teachings.

Going back to John's point: unless you show us where in the Bible it states the Bible is the sole rule of faith, I would consider taking a different non-biblical approach to the Christian faith by seeing what the very first Christians taught and how they worshiped.

Throughout some of your previous replies, you have made certain comments, that lead me to think you may have some misconceptions about the Church.

Here are some of the misconceptions I sense:

— Catholics don't worship:

• Mary ... we honor her and ask her to pray with us and for us to Jesus.
• the Pope ... we listen to the successor whom Jesus has put in charge of safeguarding His Divine teachings
• idols or statues ... we use statues to bring into our minds, the people in Heaven whom we are asking to pray with us and for us to God.
• Saints ... we ask them to pray for us and with us because God wants us to. There isn't a family fight in Heaven for our prayers.

We worship GOD ALONE in the Divine Person of Our Blessed Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ!

If you were taught anything else, you had a terrible Catholic teacher.

— The Holy Bible is a Catholic book

• It was written by Catholics and their ancestors, for Catholics, for use in the Catholic Mass.

— RE: Is there an invisible church? Matt 18:15-17 states:

If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

The Church can't be an invisible church, otherwise the Christians in the Bible would not know where to go to tell the Church. Remember there were break off groups, like the Arians, as well.

In a very good piece James Akin wrote on the term "Catholic" he stated:

The attempt by non-Catholics to claim "catholic" for themselves is not new. Heretics and schismatics in the fourth century tried to claim the term, yet their attempts proved unsuccessful. In 397 [St.] Augustine pointed this out using an illustration from everyday life:

"[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called `catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation' 4:5).

Side note: You said:
Tradition/Pope/over scripture?

It sounds like you have been listening to Protestant theology.

Question:

• If a person is interested in what a Methodist believes, does he go to a Baptist?
• If a person is interested in what a Baptist believes, does he go to a Quaker?
• If a person is interested in what a Church of Christ member believes, does he go to a Pentecostal?
• If a person is interested in what a Catholic believes, does he go to a Catholic that does not know his/her own faith nor put it into action by his/her behaviors and/or actions?

What's my point?

How does a person who was born a Protestant or is an uncatechized, fallen away, bitter Catholic know what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches? He doesn't!

If you want to be open to what Catholics believe, go to PRACTICING Catholics.

If you would read it, I'll send you a FREE Catechism of the Catholic Church; as long as
it doesn't gather dust, but is broken in and used. (All I ask for is the required information.{not much})

Take care,

Mike

One more clarifying point and I think Mike's answer is classic example of a language issue.

When Catholics say they are praying to a Saint, that would be better put by saying we are asking the Saint to pray for us and with us, much like we would ask a "living" member of the Church to pray for us. And none of that detracts from the single Mediatorship of Jesus Christ. In fact, everywhere in Scripture where Christ is called the One Mediator, the verse also mentions the Church, the Body of Christ, or the Saints.

I would refer you to Hebrew 12:

"Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses".

Hebrews 12:1 refers back to Hebrews Chapters 11 which lists all those who died in faith.

Reading on in Chapter 12, around the 20th verse we see Christian worship on earth being linked to the worship in heaven, including the "spirits of just men made perfect". This is an obvious reference to the saints who have gone on before us.

In Revelation 5:8, we see the 24 elders, holding up bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints. The Church has always understood that 24 elders represent the OT and NT Church and that those in heaven hold up our prayers before the Lord.

Another good book for you to read on this subject is by Patrick Madrid "Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine".

Finally Tessie, I asked all the same questions you did. Like you I left the Church and actually went into the ministry. But it was the Bible itself that eventually brought me back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

God Bless and good luck in your faith journey.

Under His Mercy,

John

Hi, Tess —

You said:

• If a Muslim may become saved, by God, then so could anyone, correct?

It's God's decision.

Short answer: Yes, God can save whomever he wants, but that salvation was still purchased by Christ and is an act of grace. So salvation is open to all.

Longer Answer: Every man has a responsibility to follow the light that God shows him and continue to seek the truth and form his conscience according to the truth he's been exposed to. So if a man does not hear the gospel, or misunderstands it, or has some kind of invincible ignorance, then God who is merciful will hold him accountable according to his knowledge.

See Matthew 25 the sheep and goats. Some will be saved having served the Lord not knowing who He is.

Conversely, if someone hears the gospel, understands and rejects it for reasons of convenience, then that man is danger of hell. And once again, it's not up to me or you or anyone else to say who is in hell. That's God's business.

We are charged to preach the Gospel.

Finally, if a Protestant or other Christian comes to believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church and refuses to come into full communion, then he too will be held accountable according to light God has shown him.

I had to make that choice. I could have either continued as preacher, preaching part of the truth and would have remained fairly comfortable and made a career of it, but when I was finally confronted by the truth, I had to make a choice. Knowing what I knew, had I chosen to ignore the truth, I would have had to answer to God for it.

John

Pay attention to verse 37, these folks obviously didn't know who Jesus was or weren't Christians because every Christian knows that when they feed the hungry, they are feeding Jesus.

Matt 25:31-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 'I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (NKJ)

Tessie,

I am truly sorry that you were not taught in a way you could understand. That has been a failing in the Church in North America for a long time. In almost every parish, you will find Bible study classes. And you can go to many Catholic web sites and book stores and get a good commentary on the Bible. As for what the Pope said earlier: he restated Catholic teaching: the Catholic church is the Church founded by Christ. Christ wanted his word passed down orally, as it says in the New Testament, and the gift of the Spirit passed on by the laying on of hands, and the gifts of his deeds passed on as the sacraments through this passing on of the Spirit. Only the Catholic Church has these elements of the living words and deeds of Christ from the founder and in union with the successor Peter, upon whom the Church was founded. However, if you read what Benedict says, he says that the means of salvation and grace are not completely lacking in other Christian communities, because the Spirit acts in them, and they have faith, Scripture, and usually Baptism. He said, "The Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them." He went on to say that "these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation.

Many Protestant Churches believe non-Christians cannot be saved. And some believe Catholics cannot be saved! All Benedict was saying was that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. I presume most Protestants believe their community is the true church. If they don't, they should leave!

As for praying to, yes, we ask them to pray for us, BUT - in ENGLISH, the word pray means to ask. The meaning is preserved in the old saying, "Pray tell". In English, we DO say we can pray TO anybody, because it only means to make a request of them. We are asking them to pray for us.

Mary Ann

Mary Ann is correct, it is proper English.

That said, St. Paul is our example.

When speaking to the Jews he argued from the scriptures, when speaking to the Greeks on Mars hill, he spoke to them from their own experience. Hence, our concern must be conveying the concept in a manner that our Protestant brothers and sisters understand and digest.

There is no sense in putting up linguistic road blocks when it's not necessary.

The terminology we use in an apologetic argument can immediately trigger preconceived notions and misunderstanding. Therefore it behooves us as apologists to be careful in the words we use and the tact we take.

John

Hi, guys —

• Can I still pray to St. Joseph? : )

Mike

Yes Mike, you can.

But my point is important. When you ask me to pray for you, you don't say, "I prayed to John DiMascio." You say, "I asked John for his prayers."

When dealing with non-Catholics who are predisposed to reject praying to saints and see it as a idolatry, the first thing we should be doing is diffusing their objection. You don't do that by using terminology that only reinforces their misconception.

You do the opposite, you even have to down play the veneration aspect of praying to saints until they have enough information to be able to understand it. They will never get that information if we keep putting up road blocks with out answers.

John

Hi Tessie,

I'll be putting the Catechism in the mail today.

I was going to send you an extra copy of the 3 Vol. Set by Jurgens but if John has some recommended reading, I would start there rather than get bogged down with other books you are not going to read at this time.

If you ARE a good reader, or excellent reader, like my sister-in-law, Pam, that's another issue.

You tell me what you think you could read without getting too much at one time.

PS Please tell your family members that THEY should respect your free will and your discernment of what is from God and what is not.

Too many good-hearted family members approach things the incorrect way, because they don't respect a family member's FREE WILL. It is not Dad's free will, it's not Mom's free will; it's not even God's free will, but Tessie Moreno's own free will!!!

Get back to me soon, either way as to whether you would read the Early Church Fathers or not.

Mike

Tessie,

You seem to be honestly seeking God's will. Why don't you buy a Catechism and read it, and that way you will know what the Catholic Church teaches, has always taught, and always will. Did you know that the Lutherans and the Catholics came to an agreement about salvation just a few years ago? So many misunderstandings abound just for lack of the same definition of words. I wish you well.

May God bless you.

- Mary Ann

Sorry, Mary Ann.

I forgot to CC you and the gang.

I'm sending her a FREE one through my Catechism for Protestants Program.

Mike

Hi John,

I just wanted to pitch in two cents more to your reply to Mike. To make an apologetic for our use of the word, an explanation. I think we should use it without apology, and explain what it really means. Protestants think it means that we are worshipping other people. To clarify to them that we are not worshipping, only talking and asking, much as they would when they visit a grave site, might help understanding.

Mary Ann

Hi Tessie,

I understand your frustration. Like you, I used to talk about agreeing on the essentials. But who decides what the essentials of Christianity are?

For the early Church, the essential truth, revolved around who Jesus is. Later the Church had to deal with heresies about the nature of the Trinity.

The issue of Salvation was not challenged for 1500 years. The Church, even the Orthodox churches that went into schism, understood that Justification came by grace through faith and was complemented by good works.

It was not until Luther misread Romans that the issue came up. So for 4 centuries a bunch of Protestant Denominations and their off springs have been dumbing down Christianity to what they call the essentials.

In a previous post, you said man was justified by faith alone. Well Tessie, that is found nowhere in bible. In Romans 3:28 it says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law. The word alone is not in that verse. Well in the context of Romans, Paul is talking about the Mosaic Law, i.e.: the temple sacrifices and circumcision. He's not talking about works done in faith and induced by grace.

Elsewhere Paul makes it clear: Ephesians 2:8,9,10. Grace, Faith, and Works are all one package.

James specifically says we are not justified by faith alone.

Now that does not mean that in substance we necessarily disagree on salvation. What it does mean is that Protestantism is built on a limited understanding of what salvation and justification are.

Luther argued that when we are justified, we are not changed, but that Christ simply declares us justified. He went so far as to say, that we still remain like dung, but Christ just covers us up with snow.

The historical Christian position before Luther was that when Christ declares us righteous he actually makes us righteous. He transforms us. This is a process. But by the time we get to heaven, Christ will purify us if we cooperate. And this is in line with the scriptures. Isaiah says God's word will not return void but will accomplish what it was set forth to do. Hence, when God declare us righteous, he makes us so.

So Tessie, you have to ask yourself: If Luther, who started the Protestant rebellion, was wrong about his two-pillar position: Faith Alone, and Scripture Alone, then by what authority can these denominations or sects define the essentials of Christianity?

The essentials of Christianity are defined by the Church Jesus Christ founded on Peter and the Apostles. Even the Orthodox Churches substantially agree on these fundamentals. All the Churches that can trace their lineage to the Apostles share the same seven sacraments. They all acknowledge the Communion of Saints. They all understand that if God does not complete his work in believers in this life, the believers face purification in the next (some form of Purgatory). And all of them understand that the Bible alone cannot be the sole rule of faith, because it was the Church that gave us the Bible.

I’ll give you one more suggestion for your reading. See if you can’t pick up a Greek Orthodox Study Bible. While the notes are not entirely consistent with Catholicism, clearly you will see that historic Christianity shares a very different set of essentials compared with that found in Protestantism.

In my journey back to the Church, I found it helpful to get a third opinion. So I looked at Orthodoxy. What I found was that aside from a belief that Pope had jurisdiction over the entire Church--- the doctrines were essentially and substantially the same.

Further I found that the disagreement over the Pope’s role boiled down to politics and national pride.

But I think you’ll find the Orthodox Study Bible, very helpful in understanding the Sacraments and the role they play in our Salvation. The Orthodox also have a different way of expressing the same truths we express in Roman Church. I think by reading that expression you might get a better picture.

John

Tessie —

I think you're right. I recommended the Catechism but my intention was simply to direct her to Catholic sources for Catholic teaching - only these days you can't trust the book just because it says "Catholic" - so rather than give her a reading list, I just said Catechism. If you guys know good books, like Shea's or Hahn's, please recommend them.

Mary Ann